Thread: Teaching a Non-Programmer How to Program?

Originally Posted by Melawe

I have read somewhere that is falls in the line of programs like Bluej, GreenFoot, etc. I don't know how it would work though. I'd think you would be using more of Robocodes packages rather than Java's packages, in turn only learning the syntax.

Yeah, they're all IDEs. They contain features that help you manage classpath and other project settings, as well as auto-complete, syntax highlighting, etc. They're a handy tool for experienced developers, but I highly suggest novice users stick with something like notepad or JEdit along with the command line until they have a good handle on what's going on.

And it would be more like having Robocode's classes available to you in the same way that classes you create are available to you. They've done the hard work, you just have to use what they created. You'd still use the standard Java packages as well as Robocode's, in addition to any you create. That might sound a little complicated, but really it's just like using your own classes, except somebody already wrote them for you.

To be fair, I've never used Greenfoot, but their about page does call it an IDE: Greenfoot | About Greenfoot

And the debate about whether beginners should use IDEs has been had too many times. All I know is that I used notepad for the first year I programmed (in high school), then I used JCreator through college (except for a few assignments that required eclipse or netbeans). I only started using eclipse when I started working as a programmer, and I can objectively say that I'm more familiar with the goings-on of Java than most of my peers who started out using an IDE. If/when I teach programming, I'll suggest that my students follow a similar schedule.

Originally Posted by Norm

That's been my experience help beginning students that only know how to use their IDE. As soon as they try to do anything outside of the IDE they have no idea how the real world works.

Exactly. It's one thing to use an IDE to help improve your productivity. It's another thing altogether to rely on things like autcomplete, classpath management, deployment shortcuts, etc.

During senior year of college, I witnessed a guy "program" entirely by copy-pasting into an IDE. He could not write something as simple as Hello World without copying something from somewhere else. Even variable declarations required IDE assistance. It was awful, because we were about to graduate together! That's the kind of programmer you risk becoming if you start using IDEs too early, imho.

And since people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones (or something), I'll give you a real example- right now I'm learning how to do EE stuff (Tomcat, JSP, JavaDB, SQL), and I'm extremely out of my element. I know that using things like hibernate and IDE automation would make my job a lot easier in the short-term, but they won't help me learn what's actually happening in the long-term. So even though it's more painful for me for now, I'm going to keep doing things at the ground level instead of jumping into a world with which I'm unfamiliar. I think that's the best way to learn.

Originally Posted by Melawe

Never? Since they update Java or some other reason?

Never. I've been coding for 8 years now, and I learn something new every single day (today: in one Java release, main didn't have to be public). That's how it is for anything, really. But with programming, there are so many different facets. Even assuming you are done learning "standard" Java (which itself is not possible), what about the world of applets? Deployment? Servers? JSP? Threading? Advanced GUIs? What kinds of algorithms is Java suited for? What kinds is it not suited for? Those aren't challenges, and I'm not trying to discourage you (quite the opposite!), but I don't think anybody is ever "done" learning Java.

Originally Posted by Melawe

Based on thier JCreator has about the same features as Eclipse or Netbeans. What

I suppose I should have specified *how* I used it. Just a syntax highlighter and a compiler. No auto-complete, none of that stuff. Now I'd probably recommend somebody use JEdit instead, so they still did compilation and classpath management on the command line.

Originally Posted by Melawe

Then what would you suggest to someone like me? I'm almost done learning Java(as in I'm moving on to the API from my book and I can read almost any code written by someone else), and the only time I've manually compiled something was before I got my book, and the 2nd time a few days ago(just to see how it would go).

I'm not really sure, as I don't know what "level" you're at. What kinds of things have you written? What kinds of projects have you been involved with? Until you've written, from scratch, a pretty large project, I'd really recommend sticking with JEdit and the command prompt. But like I said, that's just my two cents.

Originally Posted by meathead

If the point of it all is to develop a conversational place of compassion, how about the "Tao of Programming", without actually writing some code it reveals some truths of programming without ever learning how to get your geek on.

Haha I actually have that book, but I didn't really like it. I think the point is mostly to see whether it's possible to show somebody our world, as most of the time if somebody asks "what are you doing", we can't give an understandable answer. I think the basic write-compile-run-debug loop is the gist of that.

Originally Posted by meathead

As far as a language, what I liked about the old days was that half a dozen commands would put you in the driver's seat with the compiler telling you you don't know how to code. My favorite would be something legacy like Turbo Pascal v.2.0. It includes a simple IDE; writes,compiles and runs code in the same place. If visual reward and ease of programming are more important than what you do, perhaps Scratch from our friends at MIT could provide some introduction before she makes a commitment to roll up her sleeves and write code.

Actually, both of those reasonings are why I'm choosing Processing. It gives you a basic IDE with syntax highlighting and deployment options, and it also is very hands on and visual. I plan on having her create a basic applet and uploading it to my site (which means pressing one button in Processing and moving a directory to my webhost) to show her the very basics of deployment, after we get through the basics of writing code and running it. I hope I'm not being too ambitious for just a couple hours.

Originally Posted by meathead

For project, a game loop could be useful in providing a context for doing something try to build onto without breaking, but also if there is anything she might really be interested in, you or she could do something she values. Scratch might also be good for a game as there are visual and program script components interconnected and the whole thing seems hard to crash.

Yeah, I'm thinking a simple educational game is the way to go. That should let us get through a fair amount of the basics.

Originally Posted by meathead

If the both of you are young single people, don't completely discount the possibility that she's planning to get into you even moreso than programming. :-)

Hahaha I'll have to keep that in mind!

Originally Posted by Melawe

Maybe you would find this helpful? List of educational programming languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's a good resource, but I think I'm going to stray away from the traditional route, as we aren't really investing enough time in this to work through more than a few tutorials. I'm pretty set on Processing, since I'm pretty comfortable with it, and it gives you easy access to visual feedback without being too kid-like. I've had some disappointing experiences with the educational "languages", so I'm skeptical. that's just me though.

Originally Posted by ChristopherLowe

I do a little bit of paid tutoring (not as much as I would like) and found that trying to teach young woman is different than other demographics (in general).

I don't disagree with you. I also used to tutor back in college. My college was mostly for people who wanted to be teachers, and they made the math majors (even the people going to school to teach elementary math) take the introductory programming course. So while tutoring, most of my job was to deal with elementary math education majors crying (literally) because they had received straight A's up until that point but were failing an introductory course.

I know that part of my job as a "teacher" is to make it interesting for her, and I'm hoping to do that by sticking with a visual, instant-feedback-driven approach. This will probably happen next weekend, and in the meantime I'll try throwing together a couple tutorials for her, if only to keep my mind straight about how I want to go over things.

As a beginner to programming and particularly Java I have to say that I'm really enjoying learning from the command line and notepad.

I've taken a Visual Basic class many years ago in high school that had us make a few predefined instant gratification type programs. I remember feeling like I didn't much care about what I was making because it wasn't really my program. I don't remember hardly any Visual Basic.

On the other hand, I've been trying to teach myself Java for around a month and I really like my progress. I'm using the java learning path from the oracle website. The few programs I've made are stupid, but they're mine and I know them inside and out. They're not bicycle themed or Helloing anyone's World. Probably because of that I feel that I'm getting a great deal more satisfaction from doing things the way I am.

That's my input for what it's worth. Learning from the command line has been much more fun for me. It could be due to using a different language or even just because I'm teaching myself. I haven't used an IDE yet so I suppose I can't really say if it's better or not, but I'm just saying that seeing visuals did not really impress me until I REALLY knew what it was like behind the scenes. The only thing I'm concerned about is teaching myself bad habits. Not sure how I can prevent that with no guidance. C'est la vie.

Of course, it's very likely that your friend has differing triggers for what would impress and inspire her.

Originally Posted by AlphaNoob

As a beginner to programming and particularly Java I have to say that I'm really enjoying learning from the command line and notepad.

That's awesome to hear. That's how every "real" programmer should start out, IMHO. But in my mind, the way I approach it is to have a buffer zone in between knowing nothing about programming and actually programming. So I'd use Processing to get the basics down in a way that's more fun than printing out prime numbers. Then if the person wants to continue, that's when Java, a basic text editor, and the command line come into play. That way there's not as steep a learning curve, and the results are a little cooler to look at.

Originally Posted by AlphaNoob

On the other hand, I've been trying to teach myself Java for around a month and I really like my progress. I'm using the java learning path from the oracle website. The few programs I've made are stupid, but they're mine and I know them inside and out. They're not bicycle themed or Helloing anyone's World. Probably because of that I feel that I'm getting a great deal more satisfaction from doing things the way I am.

Cool, and I think that's how it should be done. In my opinion, one of the problems with traditional programming education is that none of the programs really matter to the students. I understand why printing out prime numbers is a good lesson, but I also understand why so many people just don't care about that. So by making the programs more interesting to the student, the process becomes a lot easier. I know that's not always possible in a classroom environment, but I think the most successful courses are going to be the ones that adapt to changing technology the fastest.

Originally Posted by AlphaNoob

The only thing I'm concerned about is teaching myself bad habits. Not sure how I can prevent that with no guidance. C'est la vie.

I wouldn't worry too much about that. No matter how fantastic your habits are, the code you're writing now will look awful to you a year from now. The code you write a year from now will look awful to you in two years. The code you write in ten years will look awful to you in eleven years, because programmers are constantly improving. So I wouldn't waste too much time worrying about it at this point.

Originally Posted by AlphaNoob

Of course, it's very likely that your friend has differing triggers for what would impress and inspire her.

Yeah, this is something that we talk about pretty often actually. She mentioned something about creating a vocab game for kids to play, so I think that might be a summer goal.